Stop the nonsense!
Seriously.
As an industry we need to collectively get a grip.
We are a community of people that make our money through search engines and social media platforms, and because of this we utilize these places as our playgrounds and our water cooler.
And because of that we sometimes have venom spewed into public that would be better left to email.
Doug Heil thinks the problem with our industry, an industry he labels “crappy”, is the “black hat.” The supreme lack of ethics he believes many of us have.
To me it is the snake oil salesman and the slander that takes place.
Clients search for you on the web, and follow you on social media sites, and the more juvenile we as an industry behave, the more adversely it effects us.
I pride myself on being a man of honor.
I pride myself on having a big heart.
As a human I have an evil nature, and can at times behave in negative ways, but in the end I always try to think of my fellow man.
And when I fail, I feel disappointed with myself.
Today I am disappointed in our industry.
Not as a whole, but certain segments.
We should be creating study groups, meetups, and symposiums, not collective bashings, scathing personal posts, and hate filled analogies.
We should be banding together to prop our industry up as a viable mainstream advertising channel, not creating content that makes us look laughable.
I hear lots of talk about ethics as of late, and have even been involved in some of these conversations.
For those of you that don’t know, Ethics is a philosophical concept brought to us from Socrates. He believed that humankind should turn from a desire to learn about the outside world, and instead focus on the concept of the human condition. He believed that evil was simply an act of ignorance, and that by gaining knowledge of our fellow man we could become better people.
In the case of SEO Ethics, we have “applied ethics” at work. This is a concept where we take ethical philosophy and apply it to real life. Here people in our industry are trying to find out how to best approach our work in a way that will not hurt our fellow man.
But why have we thrown out the original meaning of ethics in this conversation?
Why are we willing to focus on the applied ethics of SEO, but so willing to act in ignorance towards our fellow marketers?
There is nothing ethical about a public bashing.
There is nothing ethical about attacks.
If you see that someone is doing something that you find “unethical” why not create a thought provoking post on how to approach that concept from the opposite side. Wouldn’t that help the human condition, and our industry more?
Hate spewed forth in digital form helps no one, other than the writer who is likely trying to utilize the pain of another human to promote themselves.
I will be taking the weekend to reflect on all of my feelings on this topic, and I would encourage others to do so as well. With a little reflection and self-evaluation you can change your whole “ethical” outlook.
Couldn’t agree more my Big Huge Gorilla friend.
meh – I am perfectly comfortable with the skin I live in.. Have been for a very long time.. I took the attitude a long time ago that reacting to these types of posts just gives the other person a certain amount of power over you that I am unwilling to allow..
When I see the ‘drama’ unfold I find it entertaining at best, a waste of time at worst.. But not much else.. Besides, listening to these types of things can set your mood to Stabby real fast..
You know me bro…. all about the luvin’ – no time for the hatin’ – this isn’t the first time, won’t be the last. I don’t think anyone outside the industry (or outside of the social types) know of the drama..nor care. We do take ourselves a little too seriously at times.
I think it is the arrogance, that any of this affects the larger business community, is telling.
Now, put down the bottle… move away from the computer and breath brother Dave. I fear a social media meltdown may befall you (long list of carnage from that the last year).
SEO is NOT just the peeps on social sites…or the relatively small clique of would-be rock stars. If you stop caring, it will stop hurting.
His Gypsy has a brand new groove – it’s all about spreading the love, preaching SEO and not giving a F@ck about the rest of it.
…on second thought… don’t lose the bottle, should still come in handy.
Mud slinging happens in every industry, it just seems to be more public in ours. Some people think nothing of being mean/hateful towards others via a scathing post on their blog – even dragging family/friends into the fight. Whatever happened to working things out in a civilized manner? Some people just have no tact or diplomacy anymore.
Sweet post Dave.
Hi Dave, I’m glad I have a few out there who alert me to posts like this. Thanks all !!
If you are going to point me out in your blog, you should really refer to references to make your point, right?
http://www.seo-chicks.com/581/lets-talk-about-spaceships.html
That’s a great discussion in which you personally made a comment as well.
The comments are very revealing as to why I do think the industry is crappy. I made my points very clearly. I also pointed out that I do NOT condone name calling whatsoever as you referenced. I agree with you about that totally.
That still does not refute my points at all though. Too many out there praise the blackhat as some kind of god or rockstar or whatever. If this industry cannot set any type of standards at all, and does not want to do so, then what do we have? … nothing. The industry is nothing and will continue to be laughed at and joked about, and written about by others out there. I don’t have to remind you of all other industries who makes jokes about SEOs. They are everywhere.
The wider internet certainly does know the state of affairs in SEO. They are not dumb by any means.
The SEO industry does not want standards. Does not want ethics involved. Does not want anything much at all that would involve leaving out many firms who do not follow some sort of rules/guidelines/standards. The people who could make something happen to not wish to ruffle the feathers of their friends who would NOT be included. That is exactly why nothing gets done.
So please don’t be telling me or others like me how to conduct ourselves. Unless or until the industry grows up with somewhat of at least ONE clue, I will continue to say to the world how crappy the industry is.
BTW: If you are going to SES Chicago in December…. see ya there. That’s right.
@Doug Heil
I referenced your thought process in general. But yes you called the industry “crappy” at teh http://seo-chicks.com post.
“So please don’t be telling me or others like me how to conduct ourselves. ”
Funny comment coming from someone who has made a name for himself telling people how to conduct themselves.
“The SEO industry does not want standards. Does not want ethics involved.
Is this really true? This blanketed statement. My company has built an SEO code of ethics, which I approached you for help on and got very little in the way of help outside of a wave towards Bruce Clay’s ethics page, to which we follow while doing client work. Bruce Clay has done so, as well as other industry leaders.
“I also pointed out that I do NOT condone name calling whatsoever as you referenced. ”
Wasn’t talking about you. I wonder if you even read this post. I mentioned you once to note that you think that the problem in our industry is the black hat. That is the truth, no?
“BTW: If you are going to SES Chicago in December…. see ya there. That’s right.”
Not sure what this means. Am I supposed to be scared? To be worried? Hmmm…you don’t know me, and hence I could see why you would think I might be scared of any man. Would love to meet up with you and discuss SEO, Social Media, Internet Marketing or any other topic. Football?
I have no dislike for you, and I hope it did not come off that way.
I am disappointed in some of the ways your approach things, but I am allowed to have feelings. You feel disappointment that the industry hasn’t accepted standards.
In the end this post wsan’t about you. And now I wonder if I made a mistake by adding your name in, and linking to other sites.
@dave and @feydakin you guys are my buds, but I think you need to look at it this way for a second. You are a business owner looking around the web for information on SEO. Researching SEO company names via search engines, and you run across posts like some of the bashing we have seen as of late. Bad for our industry or not?
And the bigger consequence is that we need to look at this in terms of being human. Is it ok to attack another human for any reason?
I say no.
I made a mistake when I wrote a non-attacking post about the SEO Champion, because it led to attacks. And I have felt bad ever since.
Anyway maybe I am the biggest tatted hippy in the world. I don’t know.
I just know I do love this industry.
That includes people like Mr.Heil, even though I don’t agree with him, I would gladly have a beer or break bread with him. That includes anyone else. I have made a change in my life over the last 6 months to better myself, and this includes the ideas contained above.
“So please don’t be telling me or others like me how to conduct ourselves. ”
Funny comment coming from someone who has made a name for himself telling people how to conduct themselves.
… and threatening to spank those who refuse to comply.
dave,
i got the intent of your post and i agree.
have a great weekend, stay positive!
=)
In the words of … oh I don’t even know now …
“Can’t we all just get along?!?!?!”
Seriously, this was in no way an attacking post, just a call to be civil and discuss things without resorting to 5th grade name calling. Emotional writing when in business is never a good call, and it has been done too much here lately.
Read full posts, discuss with friends, and calm down before responding. Comments and forums are not the perfect communication medium and we almost always regret what we say in the passion of the moment. Hitch is, on the internet, it can’t be deleted (it can, but if it’s not your site you may be screwed).
You can apologize as many have before for things assumed and written about, but it’s always there.
Please be the change you want to see in the world (another cliche, I know). Dave is doing that and leading by example. He already has my utmost respect, but he gets even more with responses and posts like this.
Well Davey baby… this (once more) is nothing new in the industry. And I hate to agree with ol Dougie – but it does happen once in a while – as long as the REAL players in the biz sign on to any type of standards/codes..it’s all for naught.
As for the bashing, what exactly can we do about it? I am all for showing up at offending community peeps doors and beating the shit out of them…but who’s paying my air fare?
I really don’t think that many peeps are finding the industry bickering….. hell, seems I must’ve missed something lately – not even sure what started this…and I am pretty tuned in.
I understand the passion, I have it as well…. just don’t see the whining and bitching stoppping anytime soon…. been around for ages…social sites just have it cranked up….
sigh…. U have any good ideas to stop the madness… do tell. Just can’t see it ending…
@dave I guess what I was calling for here was personal responsibility. The only thing that can be done.
Something I try to work on everyday.
Just learning to value humanity more, and realize that people besides myself have value.
Dave,
This article is really a great way to end a hard week! Have a few beers and relax with the family ;-)
Kelli
Dave; no threat at all. Just saying I’ll see you there if you go. Many out there think I have something to say and do like what I stand for. Some out there do not…. Jane? :)
Dave wrote:
“As for the bashing, what exactly can we do about it? I am all for showing up at offending community peeps doors and beating the shit out of them…but who’s paying my air fare”
Now that was funny stuff.
Dave,
I decided last night that any post I wrote on the topic woulnd’t mention names or link to any of their sites (in fact if you read my post – http://searchenginetigers.com/2008/09/hateful-little-trolls-and-your-reputation.html – I don’t even mention the sex of the the person in question).
I agree with the sentiment of your post, but the problem here is that we don’t have people that are ‘in the industry’ doing the attacking, we have people that are in the hate industry. They don’t offer solutions, or differing opinions, they offer more hate. Anything that doesn’t correlate with their ideas is immediately smacked down and yelled at, sometimes with a foul mouth.
As to whether this happens in other industries? Well, the issue with this industry is that it’s online, immediate and visible, so any attacks are
easily seen, and the escalation can be just as quick. Other industries have their schisms, they just take longer to develop, or they happen in different, less immediate media.
To all that this Hateful Little Troll has attacked, and will attack over the time to come, just think about the source, proactively manage your reputation, and let the troll fade away
Wow… normally I try to stay as far away from threads like this as I can. But today I have some things I’d like to get off my chest so read on – but be forewarned… I’m often an ass to prove my point.
The SEO Industry doesn’t want Ethics?
Says who? Let me share my paradigm w/ you for a moment if you will :)
When I see “Christian Webmaster” advertised on a site it makes me Cringe! Why? I’m a Christian, will you find that plastered all over my site, or in my marketing material? NO! (following along?)
Why wouldn’t I put that in my marketing material? Same reason I don’t include “Oxygen inhaler” or “Ethical web designer” – Some things in life should just be a given. It’s like when someone says “To be totally honest with you” (what you weren’t being honest w/ me earlier? and your going to start now? WTF?)
You should always be Honest / Ethical / Breath air the whole nine… no ethics committee needed… it should be a given!
I’m a big fan of the Denis Leary approach to things that piss me off… you do something stupid and I’ll call you out. Is that the best way to handle the situation? Probably not… but things get resolved… and you always know where you stand w/ me because I’m not nice to your face and then talk crap behind your back…
As an Industry… who am I to talk on behalf of an entire industry? I am responsible for MY Actions… that’s it… I’m a nice guy that doesn’t screw people over. Does that mean I’m ethical? LOL when you find an Ethics committee let me know… I’ll be holding my breath, awaiting the answer!
I got what your were saying Dave… Have a great weekend and it’s always good to reflect -
DB
@Doug I will be in Chi-Town for sure … will buy you a beer as long as its not a lite beer.
Never drink lite. Bud is/was my beer. Don’t drink much anymore at all, but could drink a few I guess. :)
Dave, I really would like to take the issues of the industry more seriously.. But really, I have been on the outside looking in for quite some time, and realistically, no one but a very very very small handful of people “in” the industry even know we exist.. And outside the industry?? Totally a non issue..
I know everyone likes to talk ethics, and reputation management, and the look of the industry, be really, no one cares but us.. Not even our clients.. It’s fun to pretend that we matter in the greater scope of things, but I bet no one here except you or I could name 5 of the top jewelers in the world, with more power, more money, and more influence than our entire industry combined has..
If we really are a clique, then we are the elementary school kids pushing each other at recess, while the real world is Skull and Bones members making the world actually happen..
@Dave oh I hear ya babe – and I tend to be my own moral compass. I tend not to dis others, trash peeps or otherwise fall into the depths of tit-for-tat BS (all for the tit tho ;0)
As Steve eluded to, there are many in the SEO biz that have no clue of the dramas (lucky them) and those outside, even less. Hell, I run a web design co and absolutely-friggen none of them even know who Matt Cutts is..never mind the rest of us…and those are web dev…closely related.
@Steve …. see above and I do agree it is near childish at times. I just stay out of it (for the most part). Let them eat cake!
@Doug – I wouldn’t be at yer door… always liked passionate folks. I can think of a few peeps I’d like to go in the ring with in this biz tho – Let’s get it on!
I have to agree that seeing the phrases “Christian Webmaster” and “Christian SEO” is a pleasant as hearing fingernails scraped on a chalkboard. SEO is a secular pursuit and the house of worship you choose to attend or not to attend has no bearing on your business ethics nor on your technical competence.
Words do not equal slander unless falsely spoken.
Can’t argue more..this is really true.
I take that back. It was assholish. I apologize. I should’ve gave you props for “That includes people like Mr.Heil, even though I don’t agree with him, I would gladly have a beer or break bread with him. That includes anyone else. I have made a change in my life over the last 6 months to better myself, and this includes the ideas contained above.”
If you meant that, it was a very cool hippy human thing to say that I would rather feel than hate.
Black hat, white hat, not that discussion again. I think everybody has to decide for himself where his ethics end.
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Mud slinging happens in every industry, it just seems to be more public in ours. Some people think nothing of being mean/hateful towards others via a scathing post on their blog – even dragging family/friends into the fight. Whatever happened to working things out in a civilized manner? Some people just have no tact or diplomacy anymore.
SEO will always have the doers, the dont-ers and the people trying to make a fast buck. Unfortunately you can replace “SEO” with just about any industry out there and get the same formula and response. It’s pretty sad really.